Ultimately the common thread in most of these cases seems to be a lack of purpose and meaning in life in general, not really an issue with the specific work environment.
The purpose of life is to make meaningful human connections, become wiser, become a better person. This is something that some combination of family, traditional social structures and religion used to provide for a lot of people.
"Create shareholder value at my current startup" obviously isn't going to scratch that itch in the same way. It's no wonder people end up feeling "burnt out" - that's your brain telling you that what you're doing is ultimately pointless, and your brain is absolutely right.
Treat work first and foremost as a means to an end, not an end in itself, and generally you'll be happier. You can (and should) take pleasure from your craft and a job well done, but honestly who cares how your Series A goes.
"Work coaching" or whatever this article is advertising will probably not help you at all
> not really an issue with the specific work environment.
I’ve contributed some time in a mentoring group. Many of the cases people would call “burnout” had little to do with their work. Once they started talking details about their life situation it would become obvious that their problems ran deeper, but blaming work was an easy way to externalize it and place the blame on easy villains: Corporations, capitalism, managers, coworkers.
There were a lot of situations like this where someone would get a new job, take fewer hours, or even some people requested demotions and took a pay cut. Then when nothing changed about their well-being, they’d shift to blaming something new at work. I talked to people who could seemingly find ways to “burnout” in every situation they’ve encountered from high school through job hopping. It’s really hard to get someone to accept that maybe the problem is running deeper than their environment, and maybe something they’re doing (unintentionally, I’m not trying to place blame) is actually leading to this outcome over and over again.
I agree that work coaching is not the solution. It presumes the diagnosis and anchors blame to work, which starts obscuring possibilities outside of that pre-chosen explanation. Regular old therapy from a trained therapist is probably a better place to start. Might be cheaper, too, especially if insurance is involved.
> The purpose of life is to make meaningful human connections, become wiser, become a better person
That maybe your own opinion. The older I get the more I realize that the ignorance is bliss - the less I know the better, nothing drains my energy more than human connections and I don't have to be better or worse, I'm just perfect the way I am and if anyone doesn't like that, it's their problem and not mine.
Yeah, I'm not sure I find either your or the parent comment's experience totally reflective of my own, but I definitely agree that I don't think the "purpose of life" is a very well-agreed upon thing. People have debated it for pretty much all of human history, and I'm not sure how anyone can reach any sort of conclusion that isn't fully personal to their own experience (I guess I lean towards existentialism)
Even as early aa elementary school I became convinced that the purpose of life is to make yourself happy. But then the question becomes, what makes you happy? The answer to that just varies so much that I doubt there will be any universal answer.
In my case, my work is being devalued by AI.[0] The same effort nets smaller and smaller returns every month, even though the work is _still_ necessary, because AI does not do original investigative work. It's hard to put work into something that might vanish in a few months.
I'm starting to feel something a lot like how people describe burnout. I need to do a bunch of different things to stay afloat, but I ain't got any gas left in the tank.
I find pleasure in other aspects of my life, but I still need to put a roof over my head.
I'm feeling the same way, and when I brought it up to some friends in tech it turned out in our group of 8 I was the least depressed.
The wife of another friend of mine confided in me that AI replacing his work in such a short time has made him depressed to the point she's getting scared he'll hurt himself.
I think we need a support group or something. But I'm too busy burning the candle at both ends trying to "catch the lifeboat" before its too late. So are most other engineers I know.
I'm sorry you're going through this but know not only are you not alone, but you're in the majority of software developers at this point (I think, anecdotally).
"Create shareholder value at my current startup" obviously isn't going to scratch that itch in the same way.
I would add a little nuance. One thing is your job isn't advancing Humanity Progress in a very direct and unambiguous way, say you work for some Very Important Organization that Does Good All the Time. Another thing is your job is totally useless or even harmful to society.
Maybe most of us are in between?
I've worked at dysfunctional companies that made me personally unhappy (busyworks, company politics, waste, bad bosses, bad teammates...) that somehow made some good things in the grand scheme of things, other that made me very happy with more neutral results.
Someone has to do mundane things, even to raise children and give a chance to the next generation to improve the world.
I don't believe putting too much thought in purpose is healthy.
Ironicly, in these cases more work can help the burnout. When you work 80 hours per week you are so busy you never notice you are not making meaningful human connections. When you only work 30 that leaves plenty of time to look at your own life and realize it isn't meaningful.
That shouldn't be taken as a sign that working more is good. It is a sign you need to fix your personal life which isn't easy. Work can be a useful part of making and keeping personal connections, but it shouldn't be the only part of it.
same logic applies to using drugs to self-soothe. if you're high all the time, you have no time to realistically engage with the material realities of your socio-emotional life and health. instead of taking the time to reflect on past actions and develop insight on how you're relating with others or living your life, you just work instead. and, in the meantime, dissonance compounds as background radiation
eventually that just leads to an even bigger crashout, burnout, break. Sinclair Lewis parodied this as early as 1922 in Babbitt [0], depicting a man who is economically satisfied and fits perfectly the mold of the white picket life and yet is devoid of meaning and satisfaction. he then spends his years in the wilderness crashing out before stumbling back into conformity because he knows nothing else
you can find meaning outside of work in so many ways. joining a small organizing group, help run mutual aid efforts, even dipping a toe into civic engagement. disentangle achieving goals that signify success from living your values and you'll be on your way to a better regulated life [1]
> The purpose of life is to make meaningful human connections, become wiser, become a better person.
These are nice things. But let's be honest, there is no objective purpose in life beyond the biological imperative. Purpose is subjective, and people will find that on their own. Or not.
Do you think it could be a combination of things? Like, in order to avoid burnout you need some degree of meaning but also some degree of success and positive work environment.
I'm coming at this from the perspective that I've been struggling with a lot of burn out and I'm mostly proud of who I am and what I do but I'm stressed because I constantly have to compensate for society's failure to reward people's contributions.
That could just be me though. I definitely agree that I think that meaning and purpose is a big thing that people are missing now.
I don't think you're unusual at all. The modern world is almost designed to make you crazy in some ways and makes it harder than it ideally would be to achieve these ideals (which is what they are, we're all human and none of us can achieve this all the time).
Unfortunately largely it is what it is and can't be changed, the only thing we can change is how we choose to respond to it
If you didn’t catch on, this is an ad for coaching services. The solution it’s proposing is to start paying for coaching sessions with this person. The prose has a very AI feel to it, especially the second half where it starts breaking down into the AI-isms like “What actually shifts things” section header.
The actual “coaching” examples are about addressing the people’s self-worth and self-perceptions, which is uncomfortably dipping into territory that is better (and often cheaper, especially with insurance) served by actually therapists. A lot of burnout cases like these, especially where workloads are low and complications outside of work are major factors, are more appropriately matched to depression than typical work burnout, which is better addressed by trained therapists than career coaches.
Burnout isn't about the number of hours. Burnout occurs because you are actively doing something that you fundamentally don't believe is worth the time.
I can work 80 hour weeks if it is a project that I am invested in or find interesting and feel zero burnout. I am working on a project currently I don't believe in and often I work maybe 6 to 10 hours of a 35 hour week and find it difficult to care about the work.
It's not as easy as that though; most people I know that ended up burnt out were the opposite, where they were actively doing everything that they fundamentally did believe was worth the time. Saying "yes" to every new responsibility, getting really enthousiastic and excited for every new opportunity, wanting to be involved and engaged with everything that comes in their path. Burnout starts (for these people) when they start to take work home, when they do extra in their free time, when they keep busy with work or something work related right up to the point where they go to bed.
This is where employers fail them. I get that employers actually want dedicated, committed, enthusiastic employees, and that these employers (and managers) do the same thing, taking their job home, living for the job, etc. But it's their job to protect their employees and themselves. If a manager finds out one of their employees is taking their job home, they should intervene.
But this is the double edged thing that managers - and lawmakers - have to deal with.
It seems like AI to me as well. “That’s the gap” is a familiar Claude-ism, as are the references to a “pivot” and the use of “touch” to mean “affect”.
To be fair, I’ve reached the point where most random blog posts I read on the internet seem AI written, so it could just be confirmation bias on my part.
It doesn’t sound too AI generated, and the stories flow well without much text that mean nothing. (Also, she’s a consultant, so writing this content is meant to signal some professional skill. There’s not much spam, just 1 blog article a month.)
Even if it had AI help to edit, the content still matches my lived experiences of people mgmt.
> Right now I have a mental block with reading ai written or ai enchanced text. So unless the article has a pre-2021 date... I'll ask ai to summarize it
That's uh, an interesting solution. As long as it's your LLM?
It seems enough people appreciated the story to upvote it though... but that assumes HN's algorithm is fair, it's free of bots, and the people voting are critical and honest on what they upvote.
In my opinion, it boils down to what ideas/experiences were seeded.
In this article for example, the author is clearly sharing their first-hand experience, therefore injecting observations from reality and their own reflection on top of it, and they then probably shaped/refined it with AI.
A slop, as I see it, is when you generate content from a very thin prompt and then share it as is.
Hey Claude - The information in this essay is fine, but you have got to stop leaning on correctio as a rhetorical device. The whole essay is built on it. We've talked about this before and it's grating because you use it in every piece of writing you produce. It's just not how people write.
HN needs to start prohibiting people from submitting posts when they turn up AI-generated content. They can still post comments, they just can't submit new threads. This is a site for humans and human-created writing. The article is a made-up farce.
Am I correct that this Maya person is looking for a job while burnt out? Man am I glad to live in a country where (for many people), when you burn out, your salary is secured even though you cannot work. You can fix the burnout first, then return to work.
over my long career, i have had the (dis)pleasure of working with many of these career/organization/employment consultant/coach types. if i can pass on a piece of advice for younger folk: avoid them. dont waste your money.
especially now, if you want coach-style advice, just put your thoughts/problems into chatgpt or whatever. that's probably all the coach is going to do anyway.
I would never advise anyone to get mental health advice from a computer, but if you're contemplating using the service of those 'life coach', yeah, consider using an AI. Even Emacs' therapist.
That "just" is doing a lot of work though; the jobs market is... challenging right now. Cost of living has exploded, demand for software developers is unstable due to the advent of AI assisted coding. (for the latter I'm sure the market will correct itself over time but still, short term it's an issue)
Can you expand on this? Your current message could be interpreted either to mean that Gen Z is prone to complaining or it could mean that Gen Z is particularly screwed.
I did read some actually until the cheap output quality started showing.
I have a hypothesis which has solved burn out for me, it’s contrarian to most health advice out there. “Just follow the sun and cut stimulation after it’s down”. You can use a tracker or my app sunsignal.app to help track it. As long as you: a) take a big break in the middle of the day b) cut stimulation after sunset (blue light, food, etc) and c) place most of your work between the daylight and otherwise let you body do what it pleases you will cure most of your health ailments. Fuck everyone else who tries to over complicate it and get you to resign into thinking you should accept the industrial age’s noise pollution and pretend you can override a broken environment’s poison with wearables, supplements, etc. you are being told to buy expensive solutions to symptoms rather than addressing the root cause.the industry has no problem selling you solutions to a problem it created.
The purpose of life is to make meaningful human connections, become wiser, become a better person. This is something that some combination of family, traditional social structures and religion used to provide for a lot of people.
"Create shareholder value at my current startup" obviously isn't going to scratch that itch in the same way. It's no wonder people end up feeling "burnt out" - that's your brain telling you that what you're doing is ultimately pointless, and your brain is absolutely right.
Treat work first and foremost as a means to an end, not an end in itself, and generally you'll be happier. You can (and should) take pleasure from your craft and a job well done, but honestly who cares how your Series A goes.
"Work coaching" or whatever this article is advertising will probably not help you at all
I’ve contributed some time in a mentoring group. Many of the cases people would call “burnout” had little to do with their work. Once they started talking details about their life situation it would become obvious that their problems ran deeper, but blaming work was an easy way to externalize it and place the blame on easy villains: Corporations, capitalism, managers, coworkers.
There were a lot of situations like this where someone would get a new job, take fewer hours, or even some people requested demotions and took a pay cut. Then when nothing changed about their well-being, they’d shift to blaming something new at work. I talked to people who could seemingly find ways to “burnout” in every situation they’ve encountered from high school through job hopping. It’s really hard to get someone to accept that maybe the problem is running deeper than their environment, and maybe something they’re doing (unintentionally, I’m not trying to place blame) is actually leading to this outcome over and over again.
I agree that work coaching is not the solution. It presumes the diagnosis and anchors blame to work, which starts obscuring possibilities outside of that pre-chosen explanation. Regular old therapy from a trained therapist is probably a better place to start. Might be cheaper, too, especially if insurance is involved.
That maybe your own opinion. The older I get the more I realize that the ignorance is bliss - the less I know the better, nothing drains my energy more than human connections and I don't have to be better or worse, I'm just perfect the way I am and if anyone doesn't like that, it's their problem and not mine.
I'm starting to feel something a lot like how people describe burnout. I need to do a bunch of different things to stay afloat, but I ain't got any gas left in the tank.
I find pleasure in other aspects of my life, but I still need to put a roof over my head.
[0] https://nicolasbouliane.com/blog/death-by-ai
The wife of another friend of mine confided in me that AI replacing his work in such a short time has made him depressed to the point she's getting scared he'll hurt himself.
I think we need a support group or something. But I'm too busy burning the candle at both ends trying to "catch the lifeboat" before its too late. So are most other engineers I know.
I'm sorry you're going through this but know not only are you not alone, but you're in the majority of software developers at this point (I think, anecdotally).
I would add a little nuance. One thing is your job isn't advancing Humanity Progress in a very direct and unambiguous way, say you work for some Very Important Organization that Does Good All the Time. Another thing is your job is totally useless or even harmful to society.
Maybe most of us are in between?
I've worked at dysfunctional companies that made me personally unhappy (busyworks, company politics, waste, bad bosses, bad teammates...) that somehow made some good things in the grand scheme of things, other that made me very happy with more neutral results.
Someone has to do mundane things, even to raise children and give a chance to the next generation to improve the world.
I don't believe putting too much thought in purpose is healthy.
That shouldn't be taken as a sign that working more is good. It is a sign you need to fix your personal life which isn't easy. Work can be a useful part of making and keeping personal connections, but it shouldn't be the only part of it.
eventually that just leads to an even bigger crashout, burnout, break. Sinclair Lewis parodied this as early as 1922 in Babbitt [0], depicting a man who is economically satisfied and fits perfectly the mold of the white picket life and yet is devoid of meaning and satisfaction. he then spends his years in the wilderness crashing out before stumbling back into conformity because he knows nothing else
you can find meaning outside of work in so many ways. joining a small organizing group, help run mutual aid efforts, even dipping a toe into civic engagement. disentangle achieving goals that signify success from living your values and you'll be on your way to a better regulated life [1]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babbitt_(novel)
[1] https://psychwire.com/free-resources/expert-insights/resourc...
Until you slow down because you are sick, or you just get a slow day at work, and get time to do a bit of reflection.
These are nice things. But let's be honest, there is no objective purpose in life beyond the biological imperative. Purpose is subjective, and people will find that on their own. Or not.
I'm coming at this from the perspective that I've been struggling with a lot of burn out and I'm mostly proud of who I am and what I do but I'm stressed because I constantly have to compensate for society's failure to reward people's contributions.
That could just be me though. I definitely agree that I think that meaning and purpose is a big thing that people are missing now.
Unfortunately largely it is what it is and can't be changed, the only thing we can change is how we choose to respond to it
The actual “coaching” examples are about addressing the people’s self-worth and self-perceptions, which is uncomfortably dipping into territory that is better (and often cheaper, especially with insurance) served by actually therapists. A lot of burnout cases like these, especially where workloads are low and complications outside of work are major factors, are more appropriately matched to depression than typical work burnout, which is better addressed by trained therapists than career coaches.
I can work 80 hour weeks if it is a project that I am invested in or find interesting and feel zero burnout. I am working on a project currently I don't believe in and often I work maybe 6 to 10 hours of a 35 hour week and find it difficult to care about the work.
This is where employers fail them. I get that employers actually want dedicated, committed, enthusiastic employees, and that these employers (and managers) do the same thing, taking their job home, living for the job, etc. But it's their job to protect their employees and themselves. If a manager finds out one of their employees is taking their job home, they should intervene.
But this is the double edged thing that managers - and lawmakers - have to deal with.
To be fair, I’ve reached the point where most random blog posts I read on the internet seem AI written, so it could just be confirmation bias on my part.
It doesn’t sound too AI generated, and the stories flow well without much text that mean nothing. (Also, she’s a consultant, so writing this content is meant to signal some professional skill. There’s not much spam, just 1 blog article a month.)
Even if it had AI help to edit, the content still matches my lived experiences of people mgmt.
Most likely this is the author's story enhanced with AI and then edited. That is the future I think.
Right now I have a mental block with reading ai written or ai enchanced text. So unless the article has a pre-2021 date... I'll ask ai to summarize it
I think I'll eventually have to get over that bias
That's uh, an interesting solution. As long as it's your LLM?
In my opinion, it boils down to what ideas/experiences were seeded.
In this article for example, the author is clearly sharing their first-hand experience, therefore injecting observations from reality and their own reflection on top of it, and they then probably shaped/refined it with AI.
A slop, as I see it, is when you generate content from a very thin prompt and then share it as is.
Doesn’t mean it’s not an ad for coaching. I share your sentiment. (So do ChatGPT and Gemini, they also agree that the article sounds like an ad)
Burn out isn’t caused by putting in too many hours at work. It’s a symptom of forcing yourself to do work you don’t align with.
Forcing yourself to care about KPI’s and goals you don’t give a hoot about will usually result in collapse.
Also, potentially chronic sleep deprivation. (Sleep apnea, disrupted circadian rhythm, possible artificial light, news/social scrolling)
Humans need alignment there, then we thrive.
especially now, if you want coach-style advice, just put your thoughts/problems into chatgpt or whatever. that's probably all the coach is going to do anyway.
I did read some actually until the cheap output quality started showing.
I have a hypothesis which has solved burn out for me, it’s contrarian to most health advice out there. “Just follow the sun and cut stimulation after it’s down”. You can use a tracker or my app sunsignal.app to help track it. As long as you: a) take a big break in the middle of the day b) cut stimulation after sunset (blue light, food, etc) and c) place most of your work between the daylight and otherwise let you body do what it pleases you will cure most of your health ailments. Fuck everyone else who tries to over complicate it and get you to resign into thinking you should accept the industrial age’s noise pollution and pretend you can override a broken environment’s poison with wearables, supplements, etc. you are being told to buy expensive solutions to symptoms rather than addressing the root cause.the industry has no problem selling you solutions to a problem it created.